Once Saved Always Saved Is A Deadly Doctrine!
“Once Saved Always Saved” is a demonic doctrine invented by Satan. It produces bad fruits, such as rebellion, hypocracy, seared conscience, and other sins. Ultimately it leads the deceived into spiritual dangers, and even to hell. (1 Thess 5:19; Heb 4:4-6; Rev 2:14-15; 2:20-21)
I have talked to quite a few Christian leaders who held this belief, and they all seemed respectable and kind at first. Some even claimed that we shared the same view (i.e. Not once saved always saved), but upon closer inspection, it turned out that they were in fact believers of “Once Saved Always Saved”. This doctrine can mostly be credited to Calvinism.
The founder of Calvinism, John Calvin, was a murderer, a religious dictator, and a prosecutor of those who believed in the true Gospel (Or those who disagreed with him). He burned a dissender, Michael Servetus, at the stake.
What kind of theology would permit a self-proclaimed follower of God to kill? To this day, many Christians consider themselves Calvinists. Though within Calvinism there are many branches, the origin of this doctrine was a murderer.
Jesus said, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Those who think that they can accept a theology from a man without looking at his fruits is delusioned. Calvinism is also a dangerous doctrine, as it removes personal responsibility from each one of us, believer or not, since everything is 100% ordained and carried out by God Himself. (See five points of Calvinism to find out why I say this)
Whenever I requested scriptural proof from the “Once Saved Always Saved” proponents, they would give me some in the beginning, and after they ran out of arguments or explanation as I questioned further, they would start attacking me personally.
They would say or imply something along these lines: that I was prideful, conceited, inexperienced, too young, stubborn, and so on, but they never gave me what I was looking for—scriptural supports for the claims or accusations that they made.
Some of them would also imply that I believe in salvation by good work, not by grace.
A girl even accused me of committing “spiritual rape” against her, when I merely pointed out to her the scriptures that say when a believer would lose his or her salvation. I asked her to tell her pastor what I told her and we could sit down together to discuss this, but her pastor told her not to see me again, and that he won’t see me himself.
Again, what kind of theologies would permit a believer of Jesus Christ to do and say such things?
When They Run Out Of Scriptural Arguments, They Say The Spirit Told Them To Believe It
Everytime they fail to come up with scriptural passsages that seem to support their claim, they would resort to “spiritual experience”, saying that the Holy Spirit led them to the belief of “Once Saved Always Saved”, even though everything in the Bible seems to say otherwise.
And what spirits were leading them to believe in the unbiblical theology of “Once Saved Always Saved”?
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Somehow many of the proponents in this demonic doctrine feel that the Bible shouldn’t be plain and simple, but has to be interpreted “spiritually”, even if that means that the interpretation doesn’t really fit well with the plain meanings of the words.
In light of so many Bible passages that say a believer can lose his or her salvation due to reasons such as departure from the faith, willful sins without repentance, and taking on the mark of the beast, the die hard proponents could still insist that the Holy Spirit told them to believe in this doctrine. Instead of reciting relevant passages of the Bible, they recit the theology of “Once Saved Always Saved”.
My question to them is, does the Holy Spirit tell you things that contradict the plain meaning of God’s words?
If the Holy Spirit didn’t tell them to believe in this doctrine, then these so called “spiritual experience” must be from the Devil, because only evil spirits could imitate the Spirit of God. In fact, every single lie of any kind has spiritual power. They would deceive and harden the heart of the deceived. It can even lead to memory loss, or alteration of one’s memory, creating confusions and illusions. Those who willingly believe in lies bring curses upon themselves because of this.
They said, “You Can’t Know What God’s Will Is!”
While some of them would accuse me of not listening to the Spirit of God, some of them would argue that I was too confident, too sure about what I said.
When you hold on to the truth, shouldn’t you be more confident because the words of God give you strength and authority? Do you have to be timid to be humble?
Matthew 7:28-29
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
Those who are unsure of their teaching, and who always sound timid (under the disguise of false humility), have the reason to be timid, because they are not teaching the truth!
They claim that you can never know God’s will. They say no one knows for sure who is actually saved in the first place. If someone “loses his salvation”, then he wasn’t really saved to begin with. Folks, this is what Calvinism teaches!
You should know what God’s will is, because:
Ephesians 5:17
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.
They Said, “You Can’t Judge People!”
Preaching the true Gospel isn’t judging. The proponents of Once Saved Always Saved often associate it with judging. Telling people the dangers of hell isn’t equal to telling people whether they are going there when they die. I am not the one who sends people to hell, but I know under what conditions is a person saved, and under what condition is the person not saved.
Now you may ask, “How can you say that?” because the Bible tells me so! (See my other article, Can You Lose Your Salvation?)
It is the responsibility for us as the followers of Christ to warn people of the consequences of sins:
Ezekiel 3:18-19
When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.
But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.
Those who preach “Once Saved Always Saved” is preaching another Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), and God says that He will hold them accountable for the blood of those who are deceived by this doctrine!
A Personal Example Of Prosecution From The Proponents Of This Doctrine
Recently there was a person who has been trying to promote “Once saved Always Saved” under my page “Can You Lose Your Salvation?” and “Repend And Be Saved” through comments. At first this person seemed to be a lover of God, and even now he may still believe that to be so, but the dialogue quickly turned sour as I gave him biblical arguments that countered his position, and called out some of his unfounded accusation against me.
This is quite entertaining to read. Guys, learn to enjoy arguments/debates, instead of avoiding it, if you are doing it for God, for your reward is great in heaven. You also don’t want to let falsehood run rampants and harm people who could have entered heaven if they only hear the truth.
This is our online discourse, enjoy:
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Patrick Geoffroy 2011/02/10 at 6:57pm under page Will You Go To Hell If You Commit Suicide (Lose Salvation)?
I don’t have to worry about hell because I’ve accepted Jesus as my personal Lord & Savior, and am convinced of it beyond the shadow of a doubt!!!
saikit 2011/02/10 at 7:49pm
Are you talking about “Once Saved Always Saved”? If so, then you are adviced to read Can You Lose Your Salvation? It’s a very serious matter. Don’t you want to double check if your belief is indeed true? I am sure I am saved right now, but if I sin without repentance and death catches me off guard, then I would go to hell too. This is why the Bible says we have to work out our salvation with tremebling and fear. (Philippians 2:12) We cannot afford to be presumptuous here and assume what we feel is right.
Patrick Geoffroy 2011/02/13 at 8:05pmI just wrote something, very good & long, in answer to the comment above, but unfortunately it got erased & therefore I was not able to send it at all. Will try again, to do it, when I have the time!
Patrick G.Patrick Geoffroy 2011/02/17 at 8:30pmSomething is not functioning properly with this site because almost every time I try to submit a comment it gets erased, & this is very frustrating & counterproductive!
Ok, here I gave him the benefit of the doubts…
At the below it was actually several comments that he submitted one by one, but I consolidated them together for easy read for the readers.
Patrick Geoffroy 2011/02/18 at 3:26pm
For I know whom I Have believed (Jesus the Christ) and I am convinced that He is able (powerful enough) to guard (to keep once & for all) what I have entrusted to Him (the Salvation of my Soul) until that day (my earthly death or the rapture; whichever comes first). 2 Timothy 1:12
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. Ephesians 2:8,9
More to come, of course!
God is the one who chose me & gave me the faith that enabled me to get saved, and not the other way around! It took Him long enough to do it & He’s not about to let me stray or slip away from His hands. If that could happen it would be not only counterproductive but it also would show & prove that Satan & the world are more powerful than Him (God)!!!
Praise God the Father & his wonderful Son!!!
When we become “Born Again Believers” (real christians – & thanks to God & his Son for that) we are called to get to know, understand, & realize what God wants us to know, understand, & realize, & henceforth rendered capable to eventually trust & believe. We are saved the moment we realize our lost condition (because of our sinful nature), & in consequence, fuly accept & believe in the one & only remedy to our hopeless situation (Jesus the Christ, the Son of God). When we get to the point where we can really trust & believe we are rendered more capable of abstaining from doing what is wrong & doing rather what is right. All of this is only to please our Lord & Savior (because we love Him & because He first loved us) & that our joy as God’s children may be made full. It is in no way to earn, deserve, or keep our salvation because Jesus the Christ the Son of God did it all once & for all!
May God & his Son bless you & keep you (if you really know Them) because that’s what it’s really all about; Patrick G.
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18
God does not call his children to fear, to doubt, & to paranoia; but rather to love, joy, hope, & to a blessed assurance of their salvation!!!
[Note from Sai Kit: The remaining comment really belonged to another page, but I mis-consolidated it. You may find it from the "Repend and Be Saved" page]
It is important to note that when you first come to Christ, as a lost sinner, you can’t help but to first repent before you get saved. When I truly came to Christ I had to realize that I was a sinner, & in consequence, completely lost. I had to agree that He was completely right about me & that I was wrong. In consequence to that I had to confess my sinful nature, my sorrow & regret for this and then promptly ask Him to forgive me my sins. At that very moment that all of this was said & done (accomplished) I was truly saved!
As you learn & grow as a christian (spiritually wise) you realize that there’s always more repentance & confession to be done because of the old nature (the old man) that’s still inside of our inner being. One day we wll no longer have this corrupt nature (the carnel minded man) in us but only the Christ like nature (the new nature He gives us when we get saved) forevermore. Thereby, complete & permanent perfection is not for here below but rather for the “Hereafter”! As for the sins that we could not bring up before the Lord, those that we long ago forgot about or that went unbeknownst to us, they are completely covered & cleansed by the shedding of His (Jesus) precious blood when He died on the “Cross”.
I would have more to share on the subject of “repentance & salvation” but it would be much too long & painstaking for me to do.
In Christ, Patrick G.saikit 2011/02/25 at 3:27am
For I know whom I Have believed (Jesus the Christ) and I am convinced that He is able (powerful enough) to guard (to keep once & for all) what I have entrusted to Him (the Salvation of my Soul) until that day (my earthly death or the rapture; whichever comes first). 2 Timothy 1:12
And you can forfeit your salvation, otherwise you no longer have freewill once you become a Christian do you?
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20
“When we get to the point where we can really trust & believe we are rendered more capable of abstaining from doing what is wrong & doing rather what is right. ”
Absolutely. You are right on about faith. The more we truly believe, the more we are able to become like Christ.
“It is in no way to earn, deserve, or keep our salvation because Jesus the Christ the Son of God did it all once & for all!”
Is repentent and re-commit one’s faith in God a “way to earn, deserve, or keep our salvation” ?
Wasn’t that what enabled us to receive salvation in the first place? You didn’t called them a “way to earn, deserve, or keep our salvation” when we did that to become born again.
How come the requirement to stay in that state suddenly become a “way to earn… salvation”?
“May God & his Son bless you & keep you (if you really know Them) because that’s what it’s really all about; Patrick G.”
Amen! If we exercise our faith, He will keep us. Without faith, we can get nothing from God. James 1:6-7 That means a Christian can fail to exercise faith and therefore God won’t keep him.
See we Christians often sins, and that shows that our faith is not strong enough to let God keep us from temptations.
“God does not call his children to fear, to doubt, & to paranoia; but rather to love, joy, hope, & to a blessed assurance of their salvation!!!”
Tell me how is this statement not a form of human reasoning? So would sinners and the unrepented souls going to hell show that God doesn’t love humanity? Would the fact that a Christian can abondant God and choose Hell makes God unloving?
“I would have more to share on the subject of “repentance & salvation” but it would be much too long & painstaking for me to do.”
Go ahead and share it. Painstaking? Look at this site.
And The Verbal Abuse Begin!!!
This person started accusing me of things that are uncalled for, for example, he said I love long discussions, and it is counterproductive and a “downright waste of time”
Patrick Geoffroy 2011/02/25 at 11:21am
I would have a lot more to say on the subjects & themes mentioned in the above comments submitted & everything else that I read on this site, but I just don’t have the time nor the energy to do it. Maybe you have the time & energy for it & you obviously love to get into long discussions. Long discussions that often end up in arguments & contestations which is not only counterproductive but a downright waste of time.
Perfection here below is not what God expects from us, but rather to get to know Him & to love Him with all of our soul, our heart, & all of our might! A relationship – a real & deep relationship! To make the effort to get to know Him is to “Love Him”! Patrick G.
saikit 2011/02/25 at 2:07pm
“Maybe you have the time & energy for it & you obviously love to get into long discussions. Long discussions that often end up in arguments & contestations which is not only counterproductive but a downright waste of time.”
Arguments and contestation can be a sign of loyalty and faithfulness to God, see:
Acts 15: 2″This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.”
In the time of Acts, some people brought wrong teachings into the churches, and see how Paul and Barnabas reacted?
And the Bible urges us to contend “earnestly” for the faith that was entrusted to us:
Jude 1:3-4: Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and
urge you to contend (earnestly) for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[a] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who
pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.“Long discussions that often end up in arguments & contestations which is not only counterproductive but a downright waste of time.” “you obviously love to get into long discussions.”
What I see from these two statement is a direct attack. So you are saying I love to argue and contest, and engage in counterproductive and time wasting discussion.
I didn’t attack you, but somehow you used loaded language to attack me. If your theology is biblical, it should bear good fruits, not bad fruits such as a vicious attack that is uncalled for.
Good tree bears good fruits, and bad tree bears bad fruits (Matthew 7:15-21). Choose which one you want to be.
“Perfection here below is not what God expects from us, ”
Matthew 5: 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
What Jesus says is enough, you should not contradict his words with yours.
To a church that is not perfect, Jesus says this:
Revelation 3: 1-3 I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Jesus tells them to repent.
Isn’t that what I have been saying here? If sinned, repent. That’s all.
Patrick Geoffroy 2011/02/26 at 11:22am
Our prime cause or call as “Born Again Believers” is to witness of our faith & blessed hope to those that are still lost in their sins. Secondly, to love, pray for, & encourage our brothers & sisters in the Lord (not the contrary). Thirdly, to defend The Lord & “The True Gospel” when the Lord’s name is dragged in the mud & a “Different Gospel” is preached (false gospel).
I’ll have more to say on “Salvation” but it’ll have to wait until I have the time for it. And when I do it (my next comment) it’ll be found on the “Can You Lose Your Salvation” partner site.
Patrick G.
Patrick Geoffroy 2011/03/05 at 3:27pm
“Just an extra”
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28 – NASB)
Now isn’t that really beautiful & reassuring. There’s, of course, many other beautiful & reassuring verses of that type in the Bible; no need for being negative, putting everything in question (especially God), then starting to doubt & causing others to doubt too (especially when it comes from so called christians)!
Now he doesn’t even consider me to be a Christian, but just a “so called Christian”.
saikit 2011/03/02 at 10:10am” causing others to doubt too (especially when it comes from so called christians)!”
So I am a “so called Christian” who “cause other to doubt” now? You might say it wasn’t what you say, but people can read between the line, and so can I. Again, the bad tree bears bad fruits. The good tree bears good fruits. Calling me a “so called Christian” and you might as well say that I am in fact not a Christian at all, because I don’t believe in “Once Saved Always Saved”, or to be more accurate, because I disagreed with you.
“; no need for being negative, putting everything in question (especially God)”
It’s not a matter of negative nor positive, but it is a matter of truth. There is no question here, but God told us so in the Bible how to get into heaven–Repent, and believe. We don’t need to put anything in question, especially our salvation. God is very clear with what He wants us to do–repent and believe.
“Now isn’t that really beautiful & reassuring.”
The Bible verse you quote is beautiful and reassuring in what it is actually saying, but not in what it didn’t say. What it didn’t say was “Once Saved Always Saved”.
In fact, Romans 8:28 has very little to do with heaven, hell, or salvation at all. How can you use one non related verse to justify or nullify anything that it is not related to at all?
Patrick Geoffroy 2011/03/05 at 2:02pm under Can You Lose Your Salvation? What Is Unforgivable Sin?You where looking for a verse in the Bible that proves that (undeniably), once & for all, when you’re saved (truly saved) it is for keeps, because it’s also in His power to do so! Power to save you & power to keep you saved inspite of yourself. It couldn’t be any other way or otherwise we wouldn’t be able to remain saved for very long at all. Good works, abstaining from doing wrong (when you’re able to do so, with His help of course), confession, & then repentance, with His help, because without Him you can do nothing. It’s all made possible when you have real faith, trust, & confidence in His power to save & His love & desire to keep you saved forevermore!
Here is the verse that proves that once saved always saved: For I know whom I have believed (Jesus the Christ) and I am convinced that He is able (powerful enough) to guard (to keep once & for all) what I have entrusted to Him (the salvation of my soul) until that day (my earthly death or the rapture; whichever comes first). 2 Timothy 1:12
More to come, if & when i’ll have the time for it. Normally, this should be sufficient! Patrick G.
Patrick Geoffroy Submitted on 2011/03/05 at 3:27pmPlease don’t transfer, my comment above, to another site. You’ve done this before & I really believe & wish for it to stay where it is becaue that’s where it belongs (can you lose your salvation?). Thank you!
saikit Submitted on 2011/03/05 at 3:35pmI didn’t transfer your comment to anywhere. One time you gave me several comments that should really belong to one comment, so I consolidate your comments into one, which made it easier for the readers to read it. What you just said here was slanderish. I didn’t delete any word and I didn’t transfer them to another page nor site.
Later, I found out that I did mis-consolidate one of this many snippet comments from another page, so I restored it. See “Repent and Be Saved” for that piece of comment and my reply to it.
saikit on 2011/03/05 at 3:45pmHere is the verse that proves that once saved always saved: For I know whom I have believed (Jesus the Christ) and I am convinced that He is able (powerful enough) to guard (to keep once & for all) what I have entrusted to Him (the salvation of my soul) until that day (my earthly death or the rapture; whichever comes first). 2 Timothy 1:12
This is not the verse for once saved always saved. This is a verse of promise for those who exercise their faith to get under the protection of God. For many other people, including those who don’t read the Bible at all, do not have the faith to activate, substantiate, and manifest the power of this promise, because without faith we can receive NOTHING from God. (James 1:7)
This is the verse that I place my faith on to see to it that God keeps me. Like David, he prayed to God so He won’t let him commit willful sin (Psalm 19:13) and forgives him for his hidden sins (Psalm 19:12)
However, this verse isn’t about once saved always saved. It’s about a man entrusting himself to God through active, daily faith, but it doesn’t negate the need of repentance on an as needed basis. If one no longer believes in God, he doesn’t have that faith and “entrust” that God requires before He continue to protect him.
And you added quite a few words into this simple verse. Don’t add so much of your own words in there and convince yourself it is the original meaning of the verse.
Patrick Geoffroy on 2011/03/05 at 6:34pmHead knowledge (& I have it too because I’ve read the entire Bible with faith, my heart, & my intelligence), good works (& they, good works, & confession & repentance don’t have the power to erase all of your sins before God nor cleanse you of all unrighteousness), is not sufficient enough to save you & keep you saved; only your faith in the accomplished work (Jesus born of divine origin, remaining perfect & without sin, revealing the FATHER who was with Him & in Him, dying & shedding His blood for all who would truly believe in Him, & finally, His resurrection & His ascension to be at the right hand of God so as to justify all who really believed in Him & all that He accomplished for them,including all the promises that He made concerning them) can save you completely & forevermore!
This is just an extra because I felt compelled to do it at once. Praise God & his Son!!! It will be quite some time before I write to you again (if I do at all).
saikit Submitted on 2011/03/05 at 7:44pmHead knowledge (& I have it too because I’ve read the entire Bible with faith, my heart, & my intelligence), good works (& they, good works, & confession & repentance don’t have the power to erase all of your sins before God nor cleanse you of all unrighteousness), is not sufficient enough to save you & keep you saved;
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
He will forgive us if we confess our sins. We ask for forgiveness, and then He answer us, and we are forgiven.
only your faith in the accomplished work (Jesus born of divine origin, remaining perfect & without sin, revealing the FATHER who was with Him & in Him, dying & shedding His blood for all who would truly believe in Him, & finally, His resurrection & His ascension to be at the right hand of God so as to justify all who really believed in Him & all that He accomplished for them,including all the promises that He made concerning them) can save you completely & forevermore!
You are reciting a theology. Where is your biblical support?
I believe in Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ by faith. By believing in Him, we obey and repent and walk with Him through faith on a daily basis.
Head knowledge (& I have it too because I’ve read the entire Bible with faith, my heart, & my intelligence)
So you are saying I read the Bible with just head knowledge, and you are the one who read it with faith, heart, and intelligence. It is a statement that you personally believe in, but I don’t see how you prove it. You don’t merely claim something and then expect people to accept it.
You kept saying that you have a lot more to say, so why don’t you really give it all at once? There is no point in telling people how much you really know. Just tell us what you know, instead of claiming how much you know and then only to keep saying that your time and energy are just too precious to actually share what you know. For those of you who don’t know why I say this, go to “Will You Go To Hell If You Commit Suicide? (Lose Salvation)” to see his following comment, quote:
I would have a lot more to say on the subjects & themes mentioned in the above comments submitted & everything else that I read on this site, but I just don’t have the time nor the energy to do it. Maybe you have the time & energy for it & you obviously love to get into long discussions. Long discussions that often end up in arguments & contestations which is not only counterproductive but a downright waste of time.
As for your habit of praising God everytime you said something:
Praise God & his Son!!!
Anyone can praise God and His Son. If you don’t preach the true Gospel, you are calling His name in vain.
It will be quite some time before I write to you again (if I do at all).
Sure, it’s your choice. Your time isn’t more precious than mine.
Later, his emails confirmed that he really did think that he was the one who read the Bible with faith, heart, and intelligent, and I was the one who read it with only head knowledge, see his email I copied and pasted below.
His Unapproved Comments
All this time I had treated him kindly with good manner, without accusing him, except to call out on his “you lover of long discussion who waste my time” attitude and other unbiblical points. Here he started lashing out at me.
Patrick Geoffroy Submitted on 2011/03/05 at 10:14pmStop putting words into peoples mouths, because that’s exactly what you often do on this site. And you’re so clever (like the devil) & good at it that it boggles the mind. And I never said that, as a christian, it’s not required or important to confess & ask for forgiveness when we sin, nor to repent with His help & hopefully not to backslide.
Over & out for at least a couple of weeks!
I really didn’t put any word in his mouth. He kept saying that he didn’t have time nor energy to say what he wanted to say, and that it would be painstaking for him to do so, but he had a lot to say etc. He accused me of being a lover of long discussion, which was a waste of time. Putting two and two together, everyone here can tell he was actually saying his time and energy were too precious to write what he said he knew a lot about.
Now he accused me of being like the devil! Wow.
Patrick Geoffroy Submitted on 2011/03/06 at 7:36amI see that you erased my last comment, erased because it was the truth, & that bothered you, & you cerninly didn’t want it to stay on this site for all to see!
Pathetic indeed!!!
Patrick Geoffroy Submitted on 2011/03/06 at 5:34pmI see that you put the comment, dated: March 5 at 10:14 pm, back where it was before so as to show everybody that it didn’t really bother you at all. But the question is why did you remove it in the first place? By putting it back you probably think that it will make me look bad instead of you, but it doesn’t because it’s the truth! What you did, by removing it, is called censorship & you did it for your own best interest. Pathetic!
The word “Pathetic” was an attempt to hurt me I guess? It was a heavy word indeed. But I was happy about that because I was persecuted for the Gospel. My reward in heaven is great!
Our Emails Dialoge
From SaiKit Mar 5 Title: Your recent comment
Stop putting words into peoples mouths, because that’s exactly what you often do on this site. And you’re so clever (like the devil) & good at it that it boggles the mind. And I never said that, as a christian, it’s not required or important to confess & ask for forgiveness when we sin, nor to repent with His help & hopefully not to backslide.
Over & out for at least a couple of weeks!
Your recent comment has been moved to trash as you accused as being like devil, and the trash can is where your comment belongs. Your new comments will never see the light of the day unless you change your attitudes and avoid using loaded languages.You might think I am very upset or angry, but I am not. If you meet me in person, you will know that i have been saying what I have been saying with a smile.I am just there to point out the truth and tell you like it is. Your comments are full of accusations–implying me as “so-called Christian”, “using head knowledge”, “love to get into long discussion” and “devil”.These accusations had no effect on me, and by God’s grace I have been doing this with atheists for so long and I was able to endure their verbal abuses such as yours.
Now if you read the Bible carefully, only Pharisees did what you did, which made what you did worst than what atheists did. At least they don’t do it in the name of God.May God has mercy on you and I plead with you to repent before it is too late.
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From Patrick Geoffroy Mar 6 Title: No, it’s for you & your site to repent & not me!!!”I have noticed, from the beginning that I started sending comments on your so called christian site, that everything works out just fine as long as everybody agrees & are impressed with everything you say whether right or wrong. Part truth cleverly mixed in with quite a lot of nonsense & outright lies! In other words, a “Different Gospel” (false gospel)!!!I have a little bit more to say & it will also be by regular e-mail once again. So don’t worry about your precious so called “christian site” because it will be strictly between you & me!Sincerely, Patrick G.
From SaiKit Mar 6 Re: “No, it’s for you & your site to repent & not me!!!”Take a few days off from this, clear your mind, and the come back to look at what you have said to me, and see if my rebuke to you start to make sense.
If you look at what you have written here, anyone who is truly close to God should recognize it as vile and slanderish.
For me, I have never attacked you except pointing out what you have said to me.
You accused me as cleverly mixing truth with nonsense and outright lies, but you have yet to point out where and what it is, with biblical support. You kept quoting verse after verse that does not support your statement, and some of which wasnt even on topic.
A pad on my shoulder here. He just won’t give me any proof for any of his accusation!
From Patrick Geoffroy Mar 6 Re: “No, it’s for you & your site to repent & not me!!!”
I’ll get back to you when I can, and I don’t know when that will be. Someone told me to just drop the whole thing because with guys like you it will probably never end! Maybe that person who told me this is right. I’ll have to think about it before I decide if I should continue or not.Sincerely, Patrick G.
More Unapproved Comments From This Person 6 Days Later!!!
Patrick Geoffroy Submitted on 2011/03/12 at 7:14pmJust a test!
Patrick Geoffroy Submitted on 2011/03/12 at 7:21pmAnother test!
My email replies to his “test” comments:
From SaiKit March 13 subject: no need to test
I will disapprove or trash your comment if I see fit. I enforce the rule.
Your comment will only pass if it is written without loaded language.
~~~~~~~~~
From Patrick Geoffroy March 13 Re: no need to test
Who gave you the permission to contact me by my other e-mail address! Anyway, you’re so full of misunderstanding & accusations that you often misunderstand & jump to conclusions (not only in regards to me but also in regards to God & his Word). It almost makes me look like an angel in comparison to you. Also, you’re so full of head knowledge that it’s bursting at the seams! To really get to know God you need much more than head knowledge (& it can be subject to misinterpretation or taking the true meaning of a verse out of context) & confidence in your own uderstanding, but rather, faith & confidence in what he’s trying to say to you in your heart by letting Him speak to you (not only by His Word)! If you read the Bible with just your own natural intelligence it will only be like “just reading another book”. You’ll get nothing out of it at all!Stop trying to prove how great you are to yourself & to others, but rather, let God, his Son, & his Word really speak to you in your heart & not only in your mind (your intelligence)!!!
See! He really meant to say I read the Bible with just intelligence! I really didn’t put any word in his mouth.
Early in this article, I mentioned that the proponents of “Once Saved Always Saved” would argue that God/Holy Spirit told them things, even though what they were told didn’t seem to fit in with the plain meanings of the words from the Bible. Again, what spirits were talking to them? I am sure God won’t tell them to interpret the Bible to the point that it contradicts the plain meanings of the words.
And how did Patrick know that God didn’t teach me the Bible? It was only because he felt that way. Feeling isn’t always true. Feeling can often be misleading. Feeling, intuition, impression, or other “spiritul experience” can come from Satan too. When the “feeling” or the “spiritual prompting” contradicts with the words of God, then you know that it isn’t from the Holy Sprit.
Galatians 1:8 says, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!”
Sure, Patrick might look like an angel here, but if he preaches another Gospel, which is what he is doing, the Bible says this person is under God’s curse. Be careful my readers!
From SaiKit March 13 Re: no need to test
Who gave you the permission to contact me by my other e-mail address!
You left this email in my system, so I thought you only showed what you wanted other to know?
Again, quote myself: “So you are saying I read the Bible with just head knowledge, and you are the one who read it with faith, heart, and intelligence. It is a statement that you personally believe in, but I don’t see how you prove it. You don’t merely claim something and then expect people to accept it. “
Seem like I didn’t put words into your mouth afterall. You were indeed saying you were the one reading with faith, heart, and intelligent, but I was only reading with head knowledge.
Again, please support what you said.
I will have a new post that copy and paste everything you said, to demonstrate to all readers how a wrong theology affect a person, and causes him to bear the bad fruits.
Repent before it is too late.
~~~~~~~~~
From SaiKit March 13
Oh and I realized that you left a comment in my page “repent and be saved” and I mistakenly consolidated it with other snippets comments of yours in another page.
I just restored it and will quickly respond to it soon.
My apology on that one.
~~~~~~~~~
From SaiKit March 13
Correction: I will restore it when my reply is also written.
You may go to that page and check later
~~~~~~~~~
From Patrick Geoffroy March 13
I didn’t have it in mind to communicate with you by e-mail or anywhere else. And since I did, it was because you sent me this short e-mail on my gmail address, and the next time I send a message it will be on the site addressed to my brothers & sisters in the Lord (whoever they may be).Confess & repent, I do that regularly, and that’s not why I’m saved & it’s not that that’s going to keep me saved either. I’m justified by my faith in Jesus (who He is & all that He accomplished for me here below) & therefore rendered as righteous before God the Father (clothed with Jesus’ righteousness & not mines).Farewell, & may God open your eyes; Patrick G.
Conclusion
“Cause for reflections as to this site!”
And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given me but raise them up at the last day. (John 6:39)
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:40)
There are, of course, more where that came from (verses above)!
What you have done on this site is (to say the least) extremely “vile” & “vicious”, & any real christian or decent person in his right mind would be able to see it. I’m not going to spell it out as to why & who prompted (possessed) you to do this; i’ll let whoever stumbles on this miserable site figure it out on there own. I’m sure that they can do it!
Also, the few e-mails that we exchanged were personal. Strictly between you & me as I had told you. By copying & pasting them on this site it was nothing else but a complete breach (violation) of cofidence. I, of course, was stupid enough to have confidence in you to keep it between ourselves!
Very vile & vicious once again!
You are spiritually demented; and it certainly doesn’t come from Jesus!!!
Your attitude really comes accross to be similar to that of John Calvin, when he decided to take matter into his own hands regarding his dissender, and eventually he burned him on the stake. You accused me of being “poccessed”, “like devil”… It sounds so much like the inquisition and the witch hunt. The same spirits that drove them to do such atrocities are now working again. Be careful Patrick.
What I did was merely following the teaching of Jesus Christ, see below:
Nothing you say to me in private should be hidden from the public Patrick, unless you think there is something to hide. You were not there to seek any spiritual help from me, nor were you sharing any private matter with me, so there is nothing confidential to protect.
You could have asked for my permission to do it & I wouldn’t have refused because I truly had nothing to hide in any of the e-mails that I sent you – quite the contrary! And don’t compare me to Mr. John Calvin because I don’t know much about him in the first place; and even if I did I probably would disagree with him on quite a few points.
As far as seeking spiritual help from you is concerned I would rather be dead than to do something like that. And you use the “Holy Scriptures” (I noticed that from the beginning that I got on this site) like a “lethal weapon” to wound, falsely accuse, discourage, & try to cause confusion, & ultimately, to doubts. You also misinterpret & misunderstand both what people say to you on this site (the ones who don’t agree with you & are not impressed with everything you say) & quite a lot of the scriptures too. Now I know that you’re not going to change what needs to be changed no matter what is shown to the contrary of a lot of the things that you’ve been preaching on this site. That’s why I’m not going to address myself to you the next time I send a comment on this site. It will be (address myself) to my borthers & sisters in the Lord, and maybe to those that are still outside the Lord but are sincerely searching for Him!
Patrick G.
I don’t need anyone’s permission to tell the truth and report to the public what you have said to me in private. I didn’t promise you anything. If you requested me to promise you any privacy, I won’t. I would have asked you to send me through comment instead.
“And don’t compare me to Mr. John Calvin because I don’t know much about him in the first place; and even if I did I probably would disagree with him on quite a few points. ”
Mr. John Calvin and you hold the same belief. See the link in this article and you will find the common ground you and him both have.
“And you use the “Holy Scriptures” (I noticed that from the beginning that I got on this site) like a “lethal weapon” to wound, falsely accuse, discourage, & try to cause confusion, & ultimately, to doubts. You also misinterpret & misunderstand both what people say to you on this site (the ones who don’t agree with you & are not impressed with everything you say) & quite a lot of the scriptures too. ”
These were very big accusations, and you have yet to provide the supports, evidence, quotes, and explanations for these alleged offenses. Like I have requested many times, show me the proof! So far, you’ve never really given me any .
“You also misinterpret & misunderstand both what people say to you on this site (the ones who don’t agree with you & are not impressed with everything you say) & quite a lot of the scriptures too.”
Where? How did I misinterpret or misunderstand and where are the quotes? Who are the victims?
So far, the only thing that was obvious was that I disagreed with you, and therefore you manufactured all these “crimes” and showered me with them.
Anyhow, I am happy for this because:
And unlike many martyres from the past, I am not going to give up my life to the persecutors so easily anymore. I am going to preach more and more truth, especially if they offend the modern Phraisees/establishment/deceived, and they can do nothing against me. I am going to stick around for a very very long time, until I die at a natural very old age, or get Raptured into heaven, or battle with the Anti-Christ as one of the 2 witnesses. God is with me, who can be against me?
If you are really sincerely searching for God, you would have known that what I wrote here is the truth. Just like what Jesus said:
Similar to what you wrote against me, the Jews also accused Jesus of being demon-possessed.
Anyone who reads this article should be able to trace back your words and attitudes to the passage above. Anyone with a reasonable mind can see the parallel.
You think what you have accused me of so prolifically would not get back to you on the Judgement Day, because you think you are “Once Saved Always Saved”, but Jesus said otherwise:
Have you prepared for the possibility if you are wrong? What happens then? If you are wrong and I am right, do you think God will just let you enter heaven without repentance? Now is the time for repentance just in case you do want to repent, don’t wait before it’s too late. Don’t wait until death and see what happen. God doesn’t give leeway to anybody. There is no happy-go-lucky with God.
If you repent and change now, you still have plenty of times to really do the work for God, and this time it will have true rewards.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, “For thy sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:31-39)
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. (Romans 8:16)
Now I don’t have to justify myself before you or any other man; God is the one who justifies me freely, by faith, in Jesus Christ my Lord & Savior!
You cannot take one passage that talks about one thing, to nullify the rest of the scripture that tell the one and the same message about another thing. In other words, you are using one part of the Bible, which has nothing to do with the point you are trying to make (once saved always saved), to cancel out the parts of the Bible that have points that you choose not to believe (one can lose his salvation).
We can’t pick and choose what we want to believe, and ignore those we don’t want to believe.
Guys, I just want to reiterate the Bible verses that say Once Saved isn’t Always Saved. (but as long as you sincerely repent God will always forgive you, so you can be assured that you have salvation for now. Keep running the race guys!)
Jesus Christ won’t blot out the name of those who are victorious from the book of life. Meaning we have to be victorious to remain on the book of life. That means we remain in God’s grace by not forsaking it.
Not everyone who believed in Jesus Christ will finish the race, and when they cross over, they will find out that they are rejected.
Only losing one’s salvation could be worst than the beginning (before one became a born again Christian)
There’s no such thing as a christian who is not “Born Again”. What you should have said is a “Born Again Believer” because that’s the only time you are really considered to be a christian (child of God) by God Himself & not by men. A christian by name (worldly believer) is not a christian at all; only “Born Again Believers” are christians period! And if you think that you’re a christian because of the few good works you’ve been able to accomplish than think again about the sins that you’ve committed that condemn you before God the Father. Works alone do not have the power to erase your sins before God; only the free gift of grace, by faith, can do that completely & once & for all. Wake up to your self-deception, otherwise you’re had (by you know who)!
And if you think that you’re a christian because of the few good works you’ve been able to accomplish than think again about the sins that you’ve committed that condemn you before God the Father. Works alone do not have the power to erase your sins before God; only the free gift of grace, by faith, can do that completely & once & for all. Wake up to your self-deception, otherwise you’re had (by you know who)!
Guys, Patrick is accusing me of something again. This time he is trying to say between the lines that “I think I am a Christian because of my good works”, and that “I didn’t believe I have salvation through faith, by grace.”
Could you guys learn how subtle people are when they alter the purity of God’s doctrines? I let Patrick does his works here so we can all learn to fight this spiritual warfare. We must be trained. We must not be afraid of defending the truth.
I believe in Jesus Christ. I receive Salvation by grace, through faith, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Romans 10:13)
And this “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
Believing in Jesus Christ requires repentance. If you don’t repent, then you believe in vain. For “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” (Galatians 6:8)
For more information, please see my other article, “Repent and Be Saved!”
“Once Saved Always Saved” ‘s proponents might say they can’t judge who is a real Christian or not, but when I confront them about Christian actively sinning (do they lose their salvation if they actively sin and not repent? Please answer me), it seems to me that when I confront them enough about their errors, some of them (Patrick) would go so far as to say that I am not a Christian, even though I fulfill the scriptural requirement, which is to repent and place my faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
Guys, this is an example of how you use the scripture to fight. Not everyone who teaches are true teachers, so you must take up your spiritual armors and be alert!
If one (born again believers only) takes the time & trouble to read all your comments & articles on all the partner sites available on Bible-Verses-Insights.com they will quickly see that when you claim to believe that you have faith in God’s grace in order to be saved is nothing but a front to hide what you really believe & are convinced of (works by which to get saved & works to remain saved). It is Jesus who saves us (the elect) utterly; not Jesus who did His part but now looks to us to complete it (our salvation), lest He died in vain (& was resurrected in vain also).
Take the time & trouble to read (John chapter 3) & (Romans chapter 7) entirely! One explains the “new birth” by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ, and the other explains the “two natures” that we, as born again believers, all have. Romans chapter 7 explains these “two natures” in a precise & beautiful way.
This is my last comment on the “Once Saved Always Saved Is A Deadly Doctrine” partner site. My next & very last comment will be found on the “Can You Lose Your Salvation” partner site.
“I leave you, on this site, with this in mind”
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace. (Ephesians 1:7)
For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (through His righteousness, & not ours). (2 Corinthians 5:21)
If one (born again believers only) takes the time & trouble to read all your comments & articles on all the partner sites available on Bible-Verses-Insights.com they will quickly see that when you claim to believe that you have faith in God’s grace in order to be saved is nothing but a front to hide what you really believe & are convinced of (works by which to get saved & works to remain saved). It is Jesus who saves us (the elect) utterly; not Jesus who did His part but now looks to us to complete it (our salvation), lest He died in vain (& was resurrected in vain also).
For a non-believers to receive salvation, don’t they have to repent and believe in Jesus Christ? Do you call that “(works by which to get saved & works to remain saved)”? This is absurd. Now, for a born again Christian to remain in repentance and continue to exercise his faith, it suddenly becomes “(works by which to get saved & works to remain saved)”? This is also absurd.
Take the time & trouble to read (John chapter 3) & (Romans chapter 7) entirely! One explains the “new birth” by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ, and the other explains the “two natures” that we, as born again believers, all have. Romans chapter 7 explains these “two natures” in a precise & beautiful way.
How do “two natures” have to do with “Once Saved Always Saved”?
And you keep quoting Bible verses that talk about how we are redempted through Jesus Christ and forgiven because of that, which tell us how we get saved “once” and how we remain saved “now”, but how are they relevant to the “Always Saved” part?
Patrick, i know this is hard to accept, but you are wrong.
Very well written, and refreshing to see someone else with those views. Having been brought up predominately baptist, the “once saved always saved” junk was thrown in my face. It is dangerous because people will continue to believe there is absolutely no way on earth they can lose their salvation if they truly have it.
No, you can’t “accidentally” lose your salvation. You won’t wake up one day and say “Oops, where did it go”. You can however reject it, or jump out of his hand, even though nobody can pluck you out. We reject his salvation in all kinds of ways, the big one is holding un-forgiveness. Jesus tells us in Matthew 6:15 that if we don’t forgive other, God won’t forgive us- not a position I want to be in!!
@ Patrick
If you disagree with someone, that’s fine- it’s your right. Attacking a blog author isn’t Christlike. 1 John tells us that if you claim to walk in the light, yet hate your brother- that you are a liar, and the truth is not in you. You can disagree with someone, but no need to go into personal attacks.
@ Sai – You said “but when I confront them about Christian actively sinning (do they lose their salvation if they actively sin and not repent? Please answer me)” The answer is yes, they reject it by choosing to remain in active, un repented sin.
Don’t let this guy get to you, the world is full of Patricks. And it is a very predominant belief throughout a lot of Christianity. I just find reading your posts an absolute breath of fresh air- it is a relief to know someone out there does agree with what the Bible says. Thanks for writing this site, and while I only discovered it last night (Thanks to Nick
I will be a frequent visitor.
Lol Mel, Patrick was forgotten until you brought him up. He’s fun to fight against. We Christian need to be battles happy in this day and age. Having someone to fight against keep you spiritually alive and alert, if you fight for the right reasons.
Very True, Sai. It keeps us on our toes, on guard and prepared!
Friends, family, and even enemies of the cross… i agree also that reading this entire piece between the two was good and but lengthy, but I learned one thing, that we ought to stand for the truth, while i do still believe that we are not to cast our pearls before swine and not to waste time on those who refuse to be open and learn!! saikit did show me or pointed on how paul did contend against false doctrine. -THANKS
In the end: the bible says let God be true and every man a liar, the only time a man can say he is right or in truth is when he agrees w/ God! if he does differently regardless of how many sound good qoutes he makes or half truths he presents, he doesnt agree w/ God. to truly agree w/ God and not be deceived by half truth’s is to take the entire bible and its message into account!!
I remember being asked, Robert? once saved always saved and I said yes, as long as you repent, yes, as long as you confess your sins before God yes, as long as you forgive, then later i learned that if one deny’s God: he’s in trouble (matthew 10:33), if one blapshemes the Holy Spirit: he’s in trouble (matthew 12:31).
Hate me for saying his guys but even salvation has a condition like most of Gods promises, and yes even the roman road to salvation has a few conditions, but check out Moses! the requirement of Moses was to slay the lamb and place the blood on the sidepost and on the top post, the requirement of Noah was to build an ark, the requirement for the disciples was to not depart from Jerusalem and wait for the promise, and they should receive the Holy Ghost, much like the requirement of salvation is believe, repent and obey, Jesus says he that believes not is condemned already read John 3: 16-18, Jesus and John the baptist both preached repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and finally Jesus says, when pronouncing judgment against those who once accepted and followed him but stubbornly remained in sinful behavior/activity: depart from me you that work iniquity (matthew 7:21-23). So, we ought to believe, repent and obey, cause to not believe and to not repent , and not to obey is to not believe Gods Word in the first place… Again, you have to take the entire truth!!! God is the same God! he required some things then and he requires some things now…
Now Im not taking away from the Grace of God, cause Jesus did everything, he came down to earth and made the great exchange, he came and obeyed God and fulfilled the law and prophecies of the prophets and ultimately paid the sin penalty for us by being a lamb, by being the precious lamb of God, and as the bible says which cometh and taketh away the sins of the world. god made sure it was by Gods grace lest any man should boast… we can’t boast as if we did anything to receive Gods grace or did anything to fulfill the remission of sins. hebrews 9:22. simply put we can’t take credit for what God has done!!!! not by works… lest any man should boast…
but dont get it twisted, the same God (you must take the entirety of the Word of God and not hang on half truths) writes in Holy scripture by way of paul into II corinthians 6:1 to not receive the Grace of God in vain. its very possible to take Gods grace in vain or take his grace or Jesus sacrifice on the cross for granted as if its a save all… ooohh? if we serve the same God and the bible teaches in hebrews that the law of moses required blood to cover sins as blood is required to cover our sins, my question to you is under what condition…
did not the blood over their sins for how long before they had to offer another sacrifice- LISTEN AND READ CAREFULLY- THEY HAD TO DO SOMETHING!!! yes, the blood covers our sins but a condition must be met, ITS THE LAW OF GOD, HIS WAYS, HIS THOUGHTS, HIS PLANS, HIS KINGDOM, HIS WORD MUST BE MET:WE ARE TO believe, repent,and obey… EVEN THOUGH THE BLOOD WAS ENOUGH TO COVER THEIR SINS, IT WOULD MEAN NOTHING HAD NOT MOSES AND THE HIGH PRIEST BELIEVED GOD! REPENTED BY SLAYING A LAMB AND OBEYING GOD BY OFFERING IT UNTO TO GOD FOR THE REMISSION OF THEIR SINS… GRACE IS NO DIFFERENT… the grace of God is the provision of God and blood of Jesus covers our sins- it is sufficient, but we too must do something… tell me what must one do to be saved and i will tell you: even if its confessing and believing (roman rd to salvation) he did something, otherwise the Grace of God and the blood of Jesus needs not our
participation…
But like most of Gods promises: there is a condition, the work was what God provided and what Jesus did but still we must meet a condition, believe, repent and obey.
saikit i talked about you were lengthy and then i preach an entire sermon-lol, TO GOD BE THE GLORY, I FEAR AN EXCEEDINGLY QUAKE CAUSE PAUL SAID and I too live by this, but i keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when i have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Thanks Robert. I see that you were very honest with the Bible. Many people make true of what they love, instead of trying to love what is true.
I am trying to see if this will post before i make another speil… cause there is something to be said and to contend against: concerning once saved always saved… cause one thing is evident, both sides of the coin is not right, somebody, someones theology is incorrect or not in line w/ the full gospel message of God and of
Jesus Christ
Ok now that I believe that this will post, let’s discuss this a little further and or should i say let the debate begin, and or in actuality continue…
I have heard many say who believe this “deceitful” doctrine, and man I have had my fair share of preachers trying to convince me, that once saved always saved is so… “i mean one while I was like does anybody really know the truth, am I the only one who has taken into account all the ways of God,” i mean he destroyed the old world under noah- why cause of sin, he kept his word concerning adam and eve “that they should surely die”- why cause of sin, he destroyed sodom and gomorrah- why cause of sin, he punished the children of israel in the wilderness-why cause of sin, he used the prophets to warn the people of God and his servants to repent- why cause of sin… notice that I said the people of God and notice that I said his servants… jews then of course but God is the same God, he warned and tarried w/ his people then and he warns and tarries w/ his people now, he is the same God… If he punished sin then, he will also punish sin now… If he pleaded w/ his his servants then, he will also plead w/ his servants now, surely i am not the only one who stands for truth!!!!- and thanks to saikit… he contends for the faith and more so against false doctrine…
the bible says in acts 20;28-29,30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and all flock of God, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. for i know that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter among you, not sparing the flock. also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them… no doubt whoever started this doctrine once was apart of the body of christ, they once tasted the goodness of God, & man say what you wanna but they were enlightened, and they also knew and know the Word of God, but somehow they were influenced by the enemy and became the servant of sin- and a proponent to teach that sin is okay or the continuing of sin is permissible cause after all you are saved, and with slick deception have made many to be drawn away after their false doctrine, john calvin or whoever was used by the enemy, a sheep turned wolf so to speak, chose to teach perverse things concerning the faith, but listen what God says about sin and what the doctrine of once saved always saved says about sin is totally different and both sides of the coin is not right, we must allow, and use the Word of God to be the final say so, the standard by in which we live…
if God punishes sin as we have established (FROM BIBLICAL EXCERPTS)this, then by what means does he cover sin or permit one into heaven, I tell you the truth: God requires blood to be shed, and God requires man to believe, repent and obey… not of works lest any man should boast… Jesus died… Jesus bled, Jesus sacrificed, Jesus was and is the Lamb of God, Jesus took on our shame, Jesus became sin for us or the representation of sin for us on the cross- he made the great exchange-he did it all, not works of man lest he should boast… the bible says that he was wounded for our transgression, he was bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon him and w/ his stripes we are healed. hebrews says w/out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, Jesus shed his blood, not you, Jesus shed his blood, not Moses, not your parents, not your pastor, church, or any religious man or woman, Jesus did it all, how can man boast in what God did- as if he did it, surely we can boast, but not as if we did anything to please God or appease god concerning sin, the bible says in isaiah 53:10 YET IT PLEASED THE LORD to bruise him, he hath out him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin… AGAIN JESUS MET THE 1ST REQUIREMENT, NOW THE QUESTION REMAINS WHAT MUST MAN DO? again Jesus did his part now what must man do… what does god require??..
John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. – believe
matthew 11:21 and luke 10:13 both state verbatim from the mouth of Jesus ,Woe unto you, Chorazin! woe unto thee, bethsaida! for if the mighty works which hath been done in tyre and in sidon, THEY WOULD HAVE REPENTED long ago in sackcloth and in ashes.
FURTHER, JESUS STATES IN LUKE 13:2&3 (NOTICE THE WORD- PERISH USED, ironically he used this in John3:16) Suppose ye that these galileans were sinners above all galileans, because they suffered such things? i tell you, nay but EXCEPT YE REPENT,ye shall all likewise perish. Ijohn 1:9 STATES IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS BEFORE HIM HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS – repent
Jesus replies to the rich young ruler when he asked what must I do to inherit eternal life in matthew 19:16-19 mark 10:17-19 and luke 18:18-20 all answer just about the same, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt notsteal, thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother, WHAT !!!! JESUS GAVE HIM A NOT TO DO LIST..???? a bunch of thou shalt nots – that come from the law of God through moses aka ‘excerpts from the ten commandments, this is how he answered: what man must do to inherit eternal life???? i tell you a man must obey.. that is our requirement… a lifestyle of obedience, what have you not read what the wise writer of ecclesiastes states as he concluded his say, ecc 12:13-14, let us consider the conclusion of the whole matter fear God and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: for this is the whole duty (aka requirement) of man. For god shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good or evil, i tell you we serve the same God yall- he is so consistent is crazy to think or listen anyone else otherwise, it goes against human logic and against scriptural evidence and more importantly against the God of old testament and the new testament… we must obey, even the entire chapter of deuteronomy 28 highlights the importance of obeying God vs 1 and the warning on not to disobey God vs 15, but lets close this w/ the words of Jesus… in John 8:51 verily, verily, i say unto you, if a man(notice the requirement of man) keep my saying he shall never see death… adam and eve saw this death(spirtual death when they sinned- cause God always punishes sin, but had they never sinned, then they would have never saw death, we too if we keep Gods word (contniue to obey)we shall never see death – obey
As i close, since we know God punishes sin (and this proof can be found from the stories of adam and eve, noah’s day, sodom and gomorrah even an honest reflection of your own life, will bring evidence this to you and against you…) and the bible says the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,- what eternal life is a gift from God THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD- WHAT HE DID AND WHAT HE COMMANDED OUT TO BE HIGHLY RESPECTED ABOVE THAT OF YOUR FELLOW persuaders- whomsoever HE they be, make what Jesus did and what he commanded the standard, not great swelling that avail to no profit, not mans wisdom, or even mans perception of God outside of Holy writ…
We see that the question has been asked and answered, what does God require to cover sin and what does require from man… i tell you again; god requires blood to be shed for sin- Jesus met this requirement, he hung on the cross for you and I, and as the song states; he bore my pain, he took my shame, and man I can gladly and appreciatively say he he made, i mean w/ his life he made the great exchange, i did nothing by Grace in orer to be saved I also did nothing by works to be saved, he did it,a dn i amt now and eternally grateful, he shed his blood and met God’s requirement. The same God that covered adam and eve’s sin making coats of skins, and clothed them genesis 3:21, notice he could have easily have covered them w/ trees and bushes, but no God required blood- an innocent was sacrificed in order to cover them w/ skins…- blood requirement… the same consistent God required the blood of a lamb to be shed in order for the death angel to pass over them in the law of God through moses- blood requiement met again to cover sins… and finally he gives his life as a ransom for many and ll who believe, John the baptist recognized him by saying, behold the lamb of God which cometh to taketh away the sins of the world- again a bloody requirement had to be met…
but wait God was not finished, he also made another requirement… cause if the blood alone without our participation was the only requirement, then all of the world would be saved regardless of how we live, but thats not the case!!! let me say it differently: if all Jesus had to do was die then there is no discussion on who is saved and who isnt saved cause we all would be saved, his blood alone covers our sins… no believing God required, no repenting required, no obedience required, but scripture proves that is not the case… What Jesus did and what he commanded must be the standard, AGAIN WHAT JESUS DID AND WHAT HE COMMANDED MUST BE THE STANDARD!!! paul said in gal 1:8 if anyone we or an angel preach any other gospel let that man be accursed… So, we know what Jesus did and we have learned further what he commanded, believe, repent and obey.
Man is required by the commands of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior in John 3:16 to BELIEVE, MAN is required by the commands of Jesus in matthew 4;17, matthew 11:21, luke 10;13, luke 13:2-3 to repent. and lastly, he commands us to obey: again john 8:51 he who keeps my saying shall never see death, he says to the rich young ruler, in essence keeps the commandments of God!!!
Once saved always saved-hmmm, since Jesus met the requirement of shedding his blood, again not of works lest any man should boast. then we are all saved right??? then we are all not only saved but always saved since we bank the eternal destiny of our soul solely on the cross and his shed blood… NO, God, yes the same God required man to do something… he required man to believe him, repent unto him, and obey him…
SINCE JESUS MET THE REQUIREMENT AND PAID THE PRICE OF OUR REDEMPTION, AND EVEN W/ HIS DEATH GOD DEMANDS SOMETHING FROM US, THE QUESTIONS REMAIN HAVE YOU FULFILLED GODS REQUIREMENT!
Do you believe him… – he that believes not is condemned already
Do you repent unto him… he that repents not cant be forgiven, and worse his lot will be that of judgement and hell
Do you obey him…- he that obeys not cant inherit eternal life but rather shall be called a worker of iniquity and his lot shall be an (eternal) death